The Roma at the Roundabout
Saturday, July 21st, 2007The endless immigration debate has taken a unique twist in Ireland lately with the bizarre developments on the M50 in Ballymun.
For the last few months a group of over 50 (32 adults, 22 children) Roma have been camping on the roundabout of an extremely busy motorway and numerous NGOs are calling for the Government to take action.
These Romani are citizens of Romania and as such are in a legal blackhole in terms of their rights in Ireland.
Ever since their country’s accession to the EU, citizens of Romania and Bulgaria have been subject to certain restrictions in Ireland. Unlike other EU citizens, a work permit is required for those looking to join the Irish labour market. At the same time, however, Romanian and Bulgarians can travel to Ireland as either tourists or as self-employed workers meaning that those without work permits can still come to the country and stay indefinitely.
However, because these countries are now in the EU their citizens can no longer apply for asylum and the existing restrictions on labour mean that they do not qualify for any kind of state welfare.
What this means is that this Romani family, which doesn’t have a single work permit amongst it, is free to come and live here even though none of them can work here, seek asylum or claim welfare. Irish law does say that they can be sent home after three months if they cannot support themselves but due to them being citizens of the EU there is nothing to stop them making their way back here straight away.
Reaction to the family’s situation has been mixed. Some, especially in NGOs like Pavee Point, want the Government to step in and provide support for what they deem to be a “humanitarian crisis”. Others want the family deported “back to their own country”. The problem is that, at the moment, neither option is open to the Government.
Due to the route it chose to take before the accession of Romania and Bulgaria it cannot now allow this family to work or claim any kind of welfare. At the same time it cannot stop them coming and staying here and as they have not committed any crime there is no justification in their deportation (at least not until they pass the three-month mark). In other words, it has tied its own hands and can be neither compassionate nor hardline.
As a result of the extremely aggressive Romani beggars, which have become a fact of Irish towns and cities, many here now believe the whole community to be worthy of nothing but their suspicion. Many have stories of Roma children stealing from shops while their parents look on, often encouraging. Many have seen them trying to steal money being withdrawn from an ATM too and there’s no doubt that this happens.
The Irish Times says (subs required) that one of the Rom infants which was taken into care was removed for its mother whilst she was begging in town with it. Apparently she cries every day about this. She can continue to cry all she wants, to be frank, as taking a child out in the lashing of rain to use as currency to extract sympathy (and as a result, cash) is probably one of the most disgusting and irresponsible things a parent can do.
What is confusing, however, is the growing consensus that these scam artists and scumbags are somehow representative of the entire Romani culture and community. There is undoubtedly an increasingly-popular perception is that these people as lazy and good for nothing, plain and simple.
Do people jump to the same conclusions when they see Irish people pulling similar tricks?
The question should be posed - what if these people could work legally; would or could they? While there are unquestionably many lazy people in the Roma community who are willing to live off welfare they don’t deserve, one only has to look at any dole queue in Ireland to realise that this is not a unique attribute of any one culture or ethnicity.
That said, only each individual Rom can know whether they are indeed willing to work for a living, so there’s no point in trying to answer that part of the question here. Assume that they are, however, and you begin to see the real issue at play here that the bi-tonal debate overlooks.
As Pavee Point’s involvement in this case suggests, Roma have much in common with the Traveler community in Ireland, but it’s safe to say that they’re even more isolated and disconnected from the wider community than travelers are here.
A standard trait of any census where Roma are involved is confusion over their population size - this is largely because they have births outside of hospitals and do not register the fact with the authorities. This disconnect with the State continues through life and even the best of cases across the continent show a desperate lack of education amongst the community.
As a result, getting formal employment is difficult at best. If you cannot read, write or do other simple tasks you are at an instant disadvantage. If you don’t have access to basic amenities it’s difficult to make yourself presentable enough to work in many places too. Couple these facts and more with the reality of the suspicion your ethnicity endures and an uphill battle becomes a vertical climb.
Ireland should not change its rules and give handouts to this family, because it would solve nothing. That said, deportation in this situation is simply a national equivalent of the attitude seen towards prisons, landfills and wind turbines - the attitude of “we have no problem with them, but just not in our backyard”.
What is required is a national and international strategy to break the cycle for those who want out of it. You cannot condemn someone to a live of begging just because the trades of their ancestors are now defunct. You cannot condemn someone to live in squalor just because they were never able to go to school. Just ask yourself how you would feel if you started life with absolutely nothing, not even the ability to read, and what you would do if there was no-one willing to help you resolve that fact.
If that was done you can bet that their culture would be seen as no lazier than our own. Of course, some of them would decide that a life of begging and scamming, educational ignorance and squalid living conditions, is what they want, and they can have it, along with our mistrust. Maybe by then people would realise that as is already the case, they’re only representative of themselves, not their culture, family or ethnicity.
Blogs elsewhere
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:13 am
Maybe this will shed some light.
As a Romanian man who spent some 26 years living near gypsies, under the constant intimidation of their bullying and antisocial behavior, I believe I have a right to a saying.
Human rights campaigners might waffle as long as they want about the misfortunate Rroma (Rromanes) gypsies being mistreated and disadvantaged by the Romanian authorities and how they are only seeking a chance for a new start of a decent life in a western country.
The political parties representing the Rroma gypsies in the Romanian Parliament are always going on about the unfavorable situation of its ethnic group, in a desperate attempt to distract the attention from the real problem: the total lack of integrity, honesty, reliability, social and economical contribution of the Rromanes.
The reality of it is the Gypsies have No intention of living normal lives, or any intention to ever work or contribute to the society, any society that might be.
I know it might sound drastic, but they actually prefer to live parasiting lives, focusing all their efforts and creativity on new ways to live on some others earning, or finding new ways of robbing, stealing, cheating, tricking, dodging, evading, screwing, faking so that they can get an undeserved income.
Furthermore, the experience, not only in Romania, clearly shows how Gypsies never bother to respect the local culture and people, never intending to integrate into the society and its local norms or making any effort in that direction. Just take a quick browse of the WWW and read various opinions of people around the globe who got in touch with any of the gypsies “missionaries”.
As the communism collapsed 17 years ago, they were free to roam and spread their grotesque culture, their rude, uncivilized, untidy and unwashed presence all over Europe, under the pretence that they were looking for an escape. Typically using a Romanian Passport.
Don’t get me wrong, the 50 years of communism were a national plague and the damage was huge, all the Romanians have suffered tremendous consequences.
But back then as nowadays, whenever the Government or non-governmental organizations made an effort to place Gypsies in social houses, the houses were shortly vandalized, the wooden floors burnt in bonfires and the horses brought in the livingrooms. The neighborhoods were turn into deplorable slums, where you wouldn’t want to lose your dog. Soon after the Gypsies and their many many kids filled again the waiting rooms of the City Halls applying for new ones.
Very few people know about the so-called “un-written Gypsy Law code”. A set of brutal rules that defy any human dignity and in fact any human reasoning.
Only one quick glimpse in it:
” A Gypsy is bound to pay compensation in gold and horses if he is caught robbing another Gypsy, but can walk totally guilt free if he robes a Romanian.
A Gypsy has to pay a few kg of gold and a few cars to the family of a Gypsy girl that he has raped, but he is guilt free if he’s raped a Romanian woman.”
They are used by the Gypsy community as a standard code to literally judge and convict its members, within a Gypsy tribunal called Stabor.
The new events on the Irish M50 motorway only confirm what I’ve just told.
Gypsies are a parasiting sub-specie that uses any means beyond or the worst nightmare, to achieve some living without working. The emotional display that shock the Irish, poorly dressed kids begging, some of them with malformities, are unfortunately only a pathetic cover for other various crime activities: pick pocketing, shoplifting, car and house theft, breaking in, card fraud, so on. All with a very cheeky and intruding attitude.
Can you imagine the shock of an unsuspecting Irish young female driver, which would be unlucky to stop at the traffic light on that roundabout at 11:PM and have her car window open? Can you imagine the extents the Gypsies are ready to go to?
Well, just allow me a quick real story. Very real and documented. It happened to my father about 20 years ago, while he was driving in my city -Constanta, in the south east of Romania, on the coast.
He was only minutes away from his destination, an aunt’s house, when he took a very slow right turn. Only a few meters after the turn he heard a bang on the left side of the car. As the car speed was really low he instantly braked and stopped. He jumped out of the car to discover a little gypsy kid sitting up by the car! He asked him if he was all right, the kid said “yeah. I am.”
Meanwhile from the opposite side if the road the Gypsy mother came storming, saying to my father that everything was OK and he could carry on with his journey.
After a few turned-down attempts of offering a lift to a hospital just for a routine checkout, my father drove away.
Only one hour later, at our house, my mother received a visit of a Police squad, informing her that my father was a hit-and-run driver involved in a road accident with human casualties!!!!
As my father immediately met the Police at the accident scene, a random resident who witnessed the incident from the balcony of his apartment, came down and voluntarily told the Police what he saw.
The woman deliberately beckoned the young child to join her on the other side of the street exactly when the car made its safe turn!!! The perfect staged accident, the greatest chance for a fat claim!!!
The investigation was closed and my father cleared of any charges.
Warning for the Irish Motorists: the Rroma Gypsies are far smarter than they look and they certainly know one thing: with a little help from the accident claim solicitors they can work “miracles”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:53 am
As a Romanian man who spent some 26 years living near gypsies, under the constant intimidation of their bullying and antisocial behavior, I believe I have a right to a saying.
You have a right to an opinion with or without this experience.
Human rights campaigners might waffle as long as they want about the misfortunate Rroma (Rromanes) gypsies being mistreated and disadvantaged by the Romanian authorities and how they are only seeking a chance for a new start of a decent life in a western country.
The political parties representing the Rroma gypsies in the Romanian Parliament are always going on about the unfavorable situation of its ethnic group, in a desperate attempt to distract the attention from the real problem: the total lack of integrity, honesty, reliability, social and economical contribution of the Rromanes.
The existance of Roma political parties seems to disprove a lot of what you say about their unwillingness to work or respect local laws and cultures.
The fact is that they are at a disadvantage and next to nothing has been done to address the core of this in any country - only then can you truly say that they don’t want to do any better for themselves.
The reality of it is the Gypsies have No intention of living normal lives, or any intention to ever work or contribute to the society, any society that might be.
Quite simply, that’s not true. You might have had to put up with those of that ethnicity that fit the above description, but they’re not representative of anything or anyone but themselves.
I know it might sound drastic, but they actually prefer to live parasiting lives, focusing all their efforts and creativity on new ways to live on some others earning, or finding new ways of robbing, stealing, cheating, tricking, dodging, evading, screwing, faking so that they can get an undeserved income.
Another complete generalisation - that’s an unacceptable argument to make without any shred of evidence.
Furthermore, the experience, not only in Romania, clearly shows how Gypsies never bother to respect the local culture and people, never intending to integrate into the society and its local norms or making any effort in that direction. Just take a quick browse of the WWW and read various opinions of people around the globe who got in touch with any of the gypsies “missionaries”.
You can find plenty of opinions on the internet - more than enough to compile a long list of ones that support your own opinion even if they don’t prove it.
But back then as nowadays, whenever the Government or non-governmental organizations made an effort to place Gypsies in social houses, the houses were shortly vandalized, the wooden floors burnt in bonfires and the horses brought in the livingrooms. The neighborhoods were turn into deplorable slums, where you wouldn’t want to lose your dog. Soon after the Gypsies and their many many kids filled again the waiting rooms of the City Halls applying for new ones.
So why didn’t the authorities do something to those vandalizing their property? And how does giving a house solve the embedded problem facing communities like the Roma?
Very few people know about the so-called “un-written Gypsy Law code”. A set of brutal rules that defy any human dignity and in fact any human reasoning.
Only one quick glimpse in it:
” A Gypsy is bound to pay compensation in gold and horses if he is caught robbing another Gypsy, but can walk totally guilt free if he robes a Romanian.
A Gypsy has to pay a few kg of gold and a few cars to the family of a Gypsy girl that he has raped, but he is guilt free if he’s raped a Romanian woman.”
They are used by the Gypsy community as a standard code to literally judge and convict its members, within a Gypsy tribunal called Stabor.
I don’t doubt that they have their own practices and culture, but I find all of the above quite hard to swallow, especially when it lacks anything close to proof.
That said, suppose it is true. Couldn’t those acting as part of these tribunals and trials be taken through the real courts of the land?
The new events on the Irish M50 motorway only confirm what I’ve just told.
Gypsies are a parasiting sub-specie that uses any means beyond or the worst nightmare, to achieve some living without working. The emotional display that shock the Irish, poorly dressed kids begging, some of them with malformities, are unfortunately only a pathetic cover for other various crime activities: pick pocketing, shoplifting, car and house theft, breaking in, card fraud, so on. All with a very cheeky and intruding attitude.
Roma beggars are not the only ones using children as props on our streets and by all accounts their aggressive nature rarely encourages sympathy amongst Irish people.
Likewise Roma aren’t the only ones capable of committing the various crimes you list, and I’ve not seen anything to suggest that they are more prolific in them than Irish people.
Well, just allow me a quick real story. Very real and documented. It happened to my father about 20 years ago, while he was driving in my city -Constanta, in the south east of Romania, on the coast.
He was only minutes away from his destination, an aunt’s house, when he took a very slow right turn. Only a few meters after the turn he heard a bang on the left side of the car. As the car speed was really low he instantly braked and stopped. He jumped out of the car to discover a little gypsy kid sitting up by the car! He asked him if he was all right, the kid said “yeah. I am.”
Meanwhile from the opposite side if the road the Gypsy mother came storming, saying to my father that everything was OK and he could carry on with his journey.
After a few turned-down attempts of offering a lift to a hospital just for a routine checkout, my father drove away.
Only one hour later, at our house, my mother received a visit of a Police squad, informing her that my father was a hit-and-run driver involved in a road accident with human casualties!!!!
As my father immediately met the Police at the accident scene, a random resident who witnessed the incident from the balcony of his apartment, came down and voluntarily told the Police what he saw.
The woman deliberately beckoned the young child to join her on the other side of the street exactly when the car made its safe turn!!! The perfect staged accident, the greatest chance for a fat claim!!!
The investigation was closed and my father cleared of any charges.
I won’t call this story into question - it’s entirely plausible.
It was an unfortunate situation for your father to find himself in and I’m glad to see that he didn’t get charged.
However, this scam isn’t new - it’s actually quite an old one. It’s not unique to Roma either, chances are the ones your father encountered probably borrowed the idea from somewhere like the USA, UK or elsewhere.
Warning for the Irish Motorists: the Rroma Gypsies are far smarter than they look and they certainly know one thing: with a little help from the accident claim solicitors they can work “miracles”.
They’re not the sole possessors of this knowledge - fraudulent claims are a factor of most Western societies nowadays, unfortunately.
Anything you’ve said about the Roma community at large has been bigoted and generalised - you may have had your own experience with certain individuals or families but it doesn’t mean the entire ethnic group acts like that.
It might be easier for you to bunch them all together, but it’s a dangerous way to operate.
Let me put it to you this way. Would I be right to assume that, as these particular Roma on the M50 are from Romania, they are representative of your country as well as their own culture? Of course not.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I have to say, Adam, that post is probably the biggest pile of nonsense I’ve encountered you writing.
Your attempt to summarily dismiss the opinions of a Romanian who clearly knows a lot more about this topic than you do is unhelpful also.
If this episode shows us anything, it shows us that we badly need to overhaul our entire immigration and asylum system in this country:
http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2007/07/time-for-new-immigration-and-asylum.html
July 24th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I have to say, Adam, that post is probably the biggest pile of nonsense I’ve encountered you writing.
Perhaps you can explain why you think that.
Your attempt to summarily dismiss the opinions of a Romanian who clearly knows a lot more about this topic than you do is unhelpful also.
I don’t think he clearly knows a lot more about this topic than anyone; he certainly hasn’t proven that he does. The only things I dismissed in his reply were the baseless and unsubstantiated comments he made about Roma people - it just so happened that there were a lot of them.
I would agree with you that the Government made a huge mistake in the way it decided to deal with the accession of Bulgaria and Romania, but something tells me we’d disagree on what we think they should have done.
I also think that there are major reforms needed in our asylum system, but that’s a whole other debate that has nothing to do with this one.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
I said he knew more about the topic than YOU, not than ANYONE. This is a simple deduction. He has lived around them in Romania for years and you have not.
It is erroneous to dismiss someone for expressing a generalisation if the fact is that the opinion they are expressing is, in general, accurate.
As it is on this occasion.
Your attribution of blaming only proven wrong-doers in relation to events where Roma have committed criminal activities is also erroneous, since it ignores the fact that criminal tendencies have become ingrained within their culture, as arrest figures in Romania and the length of Europe will attest to.
As you are so attached to the concept of individual responsibility, no doubt you would agree with me that the plight of the Roma, as you characterise it, is their own making and that of no one elses? Least of all the Irish people.
July 24th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
I said he knew more about the topic than YOU, not than ANYONE. This is a simple deduction. He has lived around them in Romania for years and you have not.
I include myself in my use of the term ‘anyone’.
His living in Romania tells us nothing more about Roma, frankly, than a visit to city centre Dublin would.
I don’t doubt that he has had negative experiences from some scumbags living nearby him - that doesn’t make him anything of an authority on Roma culture.
It is erroneous to dismiss someone for expressing a generalisation if the fact is that the opinion they are expressing is, in general, accurate.
A generalisation, by definition is not accurate.
It’s perfectly legitimate to dismiss someone who expresses a generalisation without anything close to evidence to substantiate it.
And I don’t believe that his generalised claims are at all accurate, either.
As it is on this occasion.
How occasional does something have to be for a generalisation to be allowed?
Your attribution of blaming only proven wrong-doers in relation to events where Roma have committed criminal activities is also erroneous, since it ignores the fact that criminal tendencies have become ingrained within their culture, as arrest figures in Romania and the length of Europe will attest to.
I’ve not seen these figures you speak about - perhaps you can point me in their direction.
I know there are plenty of Roma, even in Ireland, that get by through crime. Ignoring what the root causes may be there I still don’t see this as a reason to tar them all with one brush.
As you are so attached to the concept of individual responsibility, no doubt you would agree with me that the plight of the Roma, as you characterise it, is their own making and that of no one elses? Least of all the Irish people.
Well as I point out in the post, there coming here is their own responsibility but I do not think it’s fair to say that the situation they find themselves in can be entirely put on their own shoulders.
I wouldn’t blame a person for being uneducated if their parents never put them through school, for example.
Sure, there are likely to be many there that had the chance of educating their children but turned it down. I’ve little sympathy for them (but I do for the child).
Then there’s also the cycle that Ireland knew all too well years ago - that children were kept from school (or taken from it at an early age) so they could work (or indeed beg) to put food on the table, or help raise their younger siblings etc.
My overall point (as I’m sure you read) is not that they should be given hand outs, but that the reasons for their reliance on handouts should be addressed. Until it is we’re just going to be passing the problem around the country, around Europe etc.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Adam, that’s simply not logical, cap’n. I include myself in everyone too, but I don’t use the term ‘everyone’ when the correct term to use is ‘me.’
And it’s also not logical to state that someone who has lived among and with a population of people for decades, shares their language etc, knows no more about them than someone who may have seen one of their number on a foreign street.
For me, a generalisation becomes accurate when it is more common than uncommon. FYI.
And also FYI, incarceration statistics are freely available from police and prison services on a nationality basis from all EU countries. As a journalist, I’ve no doubt the ability to pick up the phone and ask for them is not beyond you.
You may note, if you read my post on this issue, that I concur with not blaming children for the faults of their parents. Which is why I specifically endorse the arrest on child abuse charges for those at the roundabout who forced their children to live in human excrement.
You may also note that, if you truly believe in personal responsibility, the reason for Roma reliance on handouts and robbery is their own choice not to pursue a legitimate work-related basis of earning income.
Furthermore, it is not our responsibility to rehabilitate them, especially since they are not indigenous as a population of this country. It is their own responsibility to do that.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Adam, that’s simply not logical, cap’n. I include myself in everyone too, but I don’t use the term ‘everyone’ when the correct term to use is ‘me.’
Fair enough - I was referring to myself amongst ‘anyone’, but let me be clear - I don’t think the first commenter has shown to know more about the situation than me.
And it’s also not logical to state that someone who has lived among and with a population of people for decades, shares their language etc, knows no more about them than someone who may have seen one of their number on a foreign street.
I don’t see why not.
I don’t pertain to know very much about Irish traveler culture despite living near a couple of their settlements for my entire life. I share their language too.
If Roma are nearly as isolated as Irish travelers I wouldn’t expect this person to know very much at all about their real culture. All he knows about Roma is what he has learned from the ones who get in his face - the ones who ram their kids at people to get change or the ones that try and scam etc.
For me, a generalisation becomes accurate when it is more common than uncommon. FYI.
And this generalisation is based on a skewed experience, as is your own.
When I walk down town, I tend to notice the women making a scene with their kids to try and elicit change. I tend to notice the ones acting suspicious in shops. When I worked in retail, I tended to notice the ones who tried to steal stuff from counters etc.
I didn’t really notice those who were busy making a legitimate living for themselves in town, though, because they just blended into the crowd.
I also tend not to assume the tanned woman is a Romani unless she’s wearing all the traditional garb either - how else can you tell the difference?
And also FYI, incarceration statistics are freely available from police and prison services on a nationality basis from all EU countries. As a journalist, I’ve no doubt the ability to pick up the phone and ask for them is not beyond you.
Sorry - that’s just not an acceptable way to argue a point, JC.
You cannot make a point and then demand that I substantiate it myself. If you cannot show these statistics you refer to, you cannot use them to bolster your case.
You may note, if you read my post on this issue, that I concur with not blaming children for the faults of their parents. Which is why I specifically endorse the arrest on child abuse charges for those at the roundabout who forced their children to live in human excrement.
I would have had no problem with the children being taken into care for the forseeable future - be it through their own neglect or not these people obviously can’t provide a safe environment for their children.
As for child abuse charges, I do consider the way that some beggars (Irish and foreign) treat their kids to be abuse.
That said, putting them in an Irish jail is no different in economic terms than giving them a home of some description. And jail, as in most cases, fails to address the route problem nor does it prevent the same from happening again and again.
You may also note that, if you truly believe in personal responsibility, the reason for Roma reliance on handouts and robbery is their own choice not to pursue a legitimate work-related basis of earning income.
I’ve already made the point that even those in the community who want to work more than anything would have a particularly hard time without education or access to basic amenities (to keep themselves clean and presentable). Then there is the very real issue of discrimination - if people assume that they’re coming from a culture of crime, as you do, who will employ them?
Furthermore, it is not our responsibility to rehabilitate them, especially since they are not indigenous as a population of this country. It is their own responsibility to do that.
It’s no one person or group’s responsibility. Those responsible for the current situation are long dead (be it tyrannical regime leaders, the Roma ancestors or others).
They cannot rehabilitate themselves, though, and if they’re left to fend for themselves they’ll just continue in this spiral.
Don’t get me wrong - any action needs to have their co-operation and there’s no point in offering services or whatever else if they don’t want it.
At an EU level, however, I think it’s something that has to be dealt with or else we’re just condemning ourselves to dealing with the same problem forever.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
You’re tying yourself in knots now. If you wish to demonstrate that you have greater knowledge of Roma than the Romanian poster, then demonstrate it. You have failed to do so thus far.
Now, I don’t know why the Romanian’s anecdotal experience is less valid than yours. Either both are valid or both are not. What you choose to notice on the street is your own concern. But from one hack to another, I’d suggest with respect that observation skills plus the ability to extrapolate away from anecdote and towards hard facts would be useful skills in this profession.
And I’ve given you the source of my assertions re criminality. I’m not going through my filing cabinet for your benefit. All the information is in the public domain, much of it online.
As for preventing Roma from abusing their children, that’s not the Irish people’s responsibility, except when it occurs in this country. If the core reasons for why they wish to abuse their children is to be addressed, I would suggest it be addressed first and foremost within their own culture.
The suggestion that these people are somehow, subhuman, incapable of helping themselves, is abhorrent to me. They seem more than capable of transporting themselves thousands of miles and organising complex begging rackets and dealing with electronic banking systems. Why are they de facto incapable of diverting some of that ingenuity towards honest labour?
July 24th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
You’re tying yourself in knots now. If you wish to demonstrate that you have greater knowledge of Roma than the Romanian poster, then demonstrate it. You have failed to do so thus far.
Now, I don’t know why the Romanian’s anecdotal experience is less valid than yours. Either both are valid or both are not.
His anecdotal evidence is perfectly valid, I never rejected it infact I made clear that I would accept it at face value.
What I am rejecting is his use of this anecdotal evidence as proof of the culture of criminality within Roma communities at large. Assuming his stories are true, and I am doing so, he’s only telling us about the criminality of a handful of people.
What you choose to notice on the street is your own concern. But from one hack to another, I’d suggest with respect that observation skills plus the ability to extrapolate away from anecdote and towards hard facts would be useful skills in this profession.
Please don’t lecture me on the use of hard facts if you’re unwilling to use them yourself.
As for my observational skills I believe them to be good but not good enough to always pin-point people’s ethnicity based on the colour of their skin. Maybe you can tell when the person serving you in a shop is Bulgarian and not Romanian or Roma and not Indian.
And I’ve given you the source of my assertions re criminality. I’m not going through my filing cabinet for your benefit.
It would actually be to your own benefit if you could back up your arguments - you not doing so in this case is actually to my benefit.
This is besides the fact that you haven’t given any sources for your assertions. As a self-professed hack you should know a bit more about what does and doesn’t qualify as a source - saying that that there are national figures out there somewhere doesn’t really hold up.
All the information is in the public domain, much of it online.
I thought it was in your filing cabinet? If it’s in the public domain and available online you have no reason not to link and reference it.
As for preventing Roma from abusing their children, that’s not the Irish people’s responsibility, except when it occurs in this country.
But you’ve said that it has occoured in this country by the very fact of them putting the children in such an unsanitary situation.
If the core reasons for why they wish to abuse their children is to be addressed, I would suggest it be addressed first and foremost within their own culture.
Well of course any change in the current situation cannot function without the Roma doing most of the “heavy lifting”, but until they’re provided with opportunities to break the cycle they’ll find it near impossible to be able to themselves, no matter what they aspire to.
If they believe they are bringing up their children in a safe environment when they’re not they need to be told otherwise and dealt with if they refuse to solve the problem. That said, the root still needs to be addressed - that is the reason why they often live in unsanitary conditions and the reasons why they don’t put their children to school.
The suggestion that these people are somehow, subhuman, incapable of helping themselves, is abhorrent to me. They seem more than capable of transporting themselves thousands of miles and organising complex begging rackets and dealing with electronic banking systems.
Who said anything about subhuman or incapable of helping themselves? I was talking about their inability to educate themselves.
You don’t need to know how to read to beg or steal - in fact if you can’t read or write and can’t access the education system there’s little else you can do.
Why are they de facto incapable of diverting some of that ingenuity towards honest labour?
You consider begging to be ingenious or inventive?
Anyway; why are they don’t putting their efforts towards honest labour?
Well in Ireland they don’t have work permits firstly. And they can’t read or write. And they largely have very poor English (if any at all). And they don’t have any facilities to make themselves “work ready”. And people assume they’re all thieves and beggars anyway. In their native lands they face similar problems in relation to education, discrimination and sanitation.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Okay, Adam. Let’s examine the methodology of demonstrating criminality by nationality. First you get the stats from the relevant prison service or police. You want a link, try prisonservice.ie or garda.ie.
Then you correlate that with the relevant statistical data on nationalities in that country from the current census data. That gives you a per capita criminality ratio for nationalities. Then you’ve got information to compare.
But sometimes you get anomalies, like with the Roma, who are Romanian, and you need to establish further how many Romanians arrested or incarcerated are Roma and how many are not. This sort of data may or may not be freely available. If it isn’t, you have to deal with contacts within the prison service or police to gain a perspective on what proportion of people of that nationality who were incarcerated were of the minority and how many were not.
I’m not in the habit of handing my work over to other journalists to win an argument online. But now I’ve told you how it’s done, I look forward to you rehashing one of my old headlines some day soon.
Then again, probably not, as I don’t think you’re quite prepared to abandon your ingrained principles on the matter in order to accept the reality of the situation as it actually is on the ground.
Now, the root causes of the behaviour of Roma lie in their culture, and where their culture originates from. It certainly does not lie on a motorway roundabout near Dublin airport, or indeed anywhere in Ireland.
Therefore, pace your bleeding heart, but it’s not our concern. We have plenty of social issues of our own to address without assuming responsibility for those of other nations who we nevertheless assist in a myriad of ways via charity work, overseas aid and EU subventions.
The Roma who came here on holiday visas, with no language or work skills whatsoever, and then outstayed their welcome did not do so with any genuine intention of seeking work, and I suspect that deep down you are aware of that.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Okay, Adam. Let’s examine the methodology of demonstrating criminality by nationality. First you get the stats from the relevant prison service or police. You want a link, try prisonservice.ie or garda.ie.
Then you correlate that with the relevant statistical data on nationalities in that country from the current census data. That gives you a per capita criminality ratio for nationalities. Then you’ve got information to compare.
But sometimes you get anomalies, like with the Roma, who are Romanian, and you need to establish further how many Romanians arrested or incarcerated are Roma and how many are not. This sort of data may or may not be freely available. If it isn’t, you have to deal with contacts within the prison service or police to gain a perspective on what proportion of people of that nationality who were incarcerated were of the minority and how many were not.
Thanks for your tips there - the fact that you haven’t actually backed up your claims speaks volumes, however.
As I said - it’s not my job to disprove things you say, it’s your job to prove them. That’s all there is to it, I’m afraid.
I’m not in the habit of handing my work over to other journalists to win an argument online. But now I’ve told you how it’s done, I look forward to you rehashing one of my old headlines some day soon.
Don’t worry about it, you’ve told me nothing new and nothing that would be considered new by most people.
Then again, probably not, as I don’t think you’re quite prepared to abandon your ingrained principles on the matter in order to accept the reality of the situation as it actually is on the ground.
What is that reality? I know there are plenty of Roma in Ireland who beg, steal and do generally disgusting things - your claim that this is their culture is where we part ways.
Now, the root causes of the behaviour of Roma lie in their culture, and where their culture originates from. It certainly does not lie on a motorway roundabout near Dublin airport, or indeed anywhere in Ireland.
I’ve seen nothing to suggest that because I’ve seen nothing to suggest that these are the actions of most Roma.
Therefore, pace your bleeding heart, but it’s not our concern. We have plenty of social issues of our own to address without assuming responsibility for those of other nations who we nevertheless assist in a myriad of ways via charity work, overseas aid and EU subventions.
Well when they come here and, in your own view, abuse their children in our country it does become our concern.
We do have plenty of social issues to deal with, but there’s no black and white here - it’s not a case of dealing with one group or another.
And as I’ve said already, I accept that they’re not our concern alone. That said just because they’re not Irish doesn’t mean we should ignore the actual issues of Roma people when they land on our doorsteps. That’s not a case of handouts and free this, that and the other - it’s a matter of giving them (on an EU level) the ability to do something with themselves.
The Roma who came here on holiday visas,
There’s no such thing - they had a passport and they got on a plane.
with no language or work skills whatsoever,
So you accept that they have no work skills? So how are they supposed to get work anywhere?
and then outstayed their welcome did not do so with any genuine intention of seeking work, and I suspect that deep down you are aware of that.
I can’t say for sure they had no intention of seeking work, you can’t either.
I’ve made my opinion on this group clear before. Maybe they are all scumbags - some of them are certainly doing disgusting things like using their kids as props whilst begging. But even if one out of all of them wanted to work they wouldn’t stand a chance - not here, not in Romania, not anywhere else.
Ireland shouldn’t pick up the tab for this but as I’ve stated already those who created this negative cycle are long gone so you can’t point the finger at their country of origin either.
So we can either partake in an international game of pass the parcel for the foreseeable future or move towards some kind of EU-level system that deals with the root cause, breaks the cycle and gives communities like these no reason to avoid education or integration.
If there are those who still refuse to join in (and there will be), fuck them. By that stage people like yourself might accept, however, that criminality is not a Roma trait, it’s a personal one.
July 25th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
And the latest revelations from the Romanian embassy and the Gardai indicate that this shower not only own property in Romania, but have been claiming social welfare there, and have sought leave from the High Court to gain emergency accommodation from the state on the grounds that - wait for it - the conditions at their roundabout campsite had become unsanitary.
So we’ve got begging evidence, theft evidence, fraud evidence, and a clear intent to obtain free housing from the Irish taxpayer.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:02 am
I have something in common with the people you describe in your penultimate paragraph.
I also started life with absolutely nothing, not even the ability to read. Luckily, my parents sent me to school, kept me there, and also helped me to read at home in every way they could, by getting books from the public library. Nobody tried to stop them doing this, I’m glad to report, even though we were poor.
I can now read, I’m happy to say.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:10 am
Congratulations on your achievements Bock - aren’t you lucky your parents saw education as a priority and sent you to school - aren’t you equally as lucky that the State you were born in (I’m assuming it was Ireland) also saw universal education as a priority?
JC:
And the latest revelations from the Romanian embassy and the Gardai indicate that this shower not only own property in Romania, but have been claiming social welfare there, and have sought leave from the High Court to gain emergency accommodation from the state on the grounds that - wait for it - the conditions at their roundabout campsite had become unsanitary.
So we’ve got begging evidence, theft evidence, fraud evidence, and a clear intent to obtain free housing from the Irish taxpayer.
The latest revelation in the story is that they’re all now heading home.
I wouldn’t be too quick to accept what Romanian officials say either give that country’s reputation. I’m not saying they’re lying, I just give their comments as much weight as those of the Roma themselves.
As for their intent in coming here, even if it was to get free money from Ireland the fact is they couldn’t, so that’s a bit of a non-issue.
Now, how about some of that evidence to back up your previous statements or are you just going to continue to expect everyone else to prove or disprove your case for you?
July 26th, 2007 at 1:48 am
To be more precise, my parents saw education as their responsibility, as did most other parents of people I knew.
This option is open to all parents, regardless of their income, but some choose not to exercise it, to the detriment of their children.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:07 am
To be more precise, my parents saw education as their responsibility, as did most other parents of people I knew.
This option is open to all parents, regardless of their income, but some choose not to exercise it, to the detriment of their children.
In Ireland, yes, that’s very true.
The problem is, of course, that people who are brought up in an environment where education is not seen as important are likely to act similarly with their own children.
Those who see education as less important also tend to be those less well off - they’d much rather have their child minding siblings at home while they worked or perhaps even have them begging or stealing to make money for the family, depending on the situation. That child grows up, can’t get themselves into a good job as a result of this and ends up in a similar situation to their parents.
It’s all about breaking these kinds of cycles - not by molly coddling people into doing something but by making the right decision even slightly more attractive in the short term than it already is.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:22 am
Adam, the facts are in the public domain, both in relation to this specific issue and in relation to the statistics I cited.
I’m still not going to do your job for you. I told you how to do the math. Feel free to do it or not do it. It’s all the same to me.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:38 am
In Ireland, you say, that’s very true. Is it your view that it isn’t true in Romania?
July 26th, 2007 at 11:02 am
JC:
Adam, the facts are in the public domain, both in relation to this specific issue and in relation to the statistics I cited.
I’m still not going to do your job for you. I told you how to do the math. Feel free to do it or not do it. It’s all the same to me.
Backing up your argument is your job, not mine.
Bock:
In Ireland, you say, that’s very true. Is it your view that it isn’t true in Romania?
I make the distinction because I am not sure if the Romanian state deals with education in the same way as the Irish state. Indeed while the country has been reforming its education system for some time, it still seems to have a long way to go.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
No, Adam. My job is my job. This is simply online. I’ve stated what the reality is. If you doubt that reality, feel free to prove me wrong. Only you won’t, because you’ll swiftly discover I’m right.
And then your argument will likely head in the direction of mitigation - they’re disproportionately young and male, or, they don’t understand Irish laws yet. I’ve heard it all before, and there’s likely little you can add to the argument.
TTFN.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
No, Adam. My job is my job. This is simply online.
So what makes you think it would be my job to back up your claims in the first place? You can carry on with semantics but your attempts to distract and divert aren’t fooling me.
I’ve stated what the reality is. If you doubt that reality, feel free to prove me wrong. Only you won’t, because you’ll swiftly discover I’m right.
No you’ve stated what you think and from what I can see you’ve failed to back it up because you know you cannot.
For a start, finding solid statistics on the number of Roma (and not Romanians) who have committed crimes would be more than a little difficult. After that, the fact that there is no figure on the number of Roma living in Ireland would make those figures pretty useless in any attempted comparison.
Even if all of those figures were accurately available I think you know that they would not prove your point
And then your argument will likely head in the direction of mitigation - they’re disproportionately young and male, or, they don’t understand Irish laws yet. I’ve heard it all before, and there’s likely little you can add to the argument.
TTFN.
I don’t think ignorance of local laws is an excuse and it’s not one I’d use. Nor is age or gender.
That said I’ve long felt that Ireland should expect plenty of dodgy people from Romania and Bulgaria, though. What else is supposed to happen when you severely limit access for legitimate workers but allow people to travel here freely and stay here indefinitely? You get a black market, of course, and black market workers are not exactly the most noble of workforces. I don’t think figures in relation to that would lean disproportionately towards Roma, though.
Now, you can continue to dance around the fact that you’ve failed to back up anything you’ve said and you can continue to pretend that verifying your case is my responsibility but frankly it’s getting a little tiring.